Hey Ben and Ryker. Do you have any thoughts or feel like discussing this trade and potential roster lineup on an episode?
Here is a link to a super long take with some more thoughts about this idea, which neither of you will probably read at all 😉 Have a good one and great work on the new changes to your setup and the show this year guys.
Raptors Digest - 2021 Raptors Trade, Draft, and Lineup
Trade
- Raptors - 76ers - Magic
- Jonathan Kuminga: 2021 5th Pick - Fred VanVleet - Ben Simmons
- Matisse Thybulle - Terrence Ross - 2022 1st Rd: TOR
- Blank - Paul Watson - 2021 2nd Rd: PHI
Lineup
- PG - Lowry - Suggs - Flynn
- SG - Trent - Oladipo/FA - 2nd/Nix
- SF - Anunoby - Thybulle - Watanabe
- PF - Siakam - Kuminga - Gillespie
- C - Boucher - FA/Giles - 2nd/Maker
Details
I heard that Daryl Morey likes 3 point shooting. VanVleet, Ross, and Watson are all pretty great at that, while Simmons is horrible and Thybulle isn't known for shooting now either. They can also use wings who have some height to possibly play SF in Ross and Watson. Even though Watson is mostly a throw in, his 3 point shooting in the G league a couple years ago and last year in the NBA have been pretty great so he might be an interesting addition for Philly. While the Magic have a lot of good young players, they need to get going at some point with at least one real player instead of having only young guys with potential. Since they also have the 8th pick, maybe they could look at Simmons as a good young player to take a chance on for that 5th pick since Kuminga is another project who could take a while or end up a bust and isn't in that top 4 tier. They could move Isaac to SF and Simmons to PF to work well as a Draymond Green point forward with their young guards and centers in Hampton, Anthony, Fultz, Harris, Carter, and Bamba. Maybe Gary Harris to the Raptors, Tyrese Maxey to the Magic, Chris Boucher to one of the Magic or 76ers, or different draft picks could be other possibilities involved if needed to get this done by sending more to some team, but hopefully not Boucher if we don't have to of course.
For us, pretty much every single guy in that lineup is pretty good on defense, works hard, and has the potential to get better. That's how you win championships and develop players the new Raptors way under Masai. That's why I'm not super high on the Siakam for Wiseman, Wiggins, and 7th pick. Wiseman and Wiggins aren't known for their IQ, motor, hard work, and passing which we want our top players to have in spades. And I like Kuminga or Barnes with the 5th pick much, much better than who might be at the 7th pick. We can develop all of these good young players to get even better, while still having a solid team now hopefully. We're hoping that Suggs is the next Chris Paul or Jrue Holiday but a better scorer, and Kuminga is the next Pascal Siakam or even Kevin Durant, or somewhere in between.
While hoping we will win a championship with Siakam and VanVleet as our best two players might be overvaluing them, there is real potential with Suggs and Kuminga. Remember, we have never had one top pick like this under Masai Ujiri, let alone two great potential young talents to develop. This is a big potential opportunity, and to have both of those guys as bench players to start off could make a good team now. Though, the future championship team might hinge around Suggs, Kuminga, Anunoby as the main core, or whoever steps up and gets better even if it's Siakam, Trent, Thybulle, Boucher, or someone else. The potential is there, and keep in mind the idea might be to possibly trade other pieces in Lowry, Oladipo, Boucher, Trent, or even Siakam, etc. at some point to get one more potential star somehow if Oladipo or Siakam isn't that guy, to go with whoever our two or three stars are at that point. In the meantime, we have a solid team of young players to start this rebuild officially, with Lowry transitioning to the bench or being traded depending on Suggs development.
Actually, I personally like keeping Siakam with these guys and having the core of Suggs, Kuminga, Anunoby, and Siakam, along with a center which could even be Boucher in my mind possibly. A lot of length in that lineup and Kuminga could potentially have and develop the offensive skills and quickness to play SG, or Anunoby could even play SG if not. It would be interesting also because that lineup would feature 4 players with African heritage, which I think Masai would be proud of and find interesting. I am surprised with how little emphasis the media has noticed or talked about the fact that Masai has gotten many of these guys with African heritage who have been undervalued. Trading for Ibaka. Drafting Siakam and Anunoby. Picking up Boucher. It's another reason why I think he could be super high on Kuminga, as someone with even more offensive potential than any of those guys.
Ben, I was glad to see you come around on Jalen Suggs after you went and read about him after we got the 4th pick. I have a feeling the Raptors might absolutely love this guy and possibly have him 2nd on their board, ahead of both Green and Mobley. They might be ecstatic that they could get him and see it as their chance to build for the future around a pass first point guard who can also score, play great defense, and lead a winning team. I love Suggs so much I might take him first overall even though I know that sounds crazy, and I agree with you that he is a perfect Raptors pick to build around for the future. He might never be known as a top 20 player just like Lowry or Siakam, and always be underrated like every Raptor because a lot of his value comes with his defense. But his amazing defense, hard work, IQ, passing ability, team basketball, pass first approach, and winning attitude make him a potential great long term leader for this team. And he still has the talent to potentially be known as a top 10 player too, though it's a crapshoot for that with any player you pick obviously. I think he could be a real playoff starter and winner as opposed to just a regular season player, league leading scorer type, or slam dunk contest winner. Remember, we won with Lowry (Suggs) who is a great all around player who works hard and plays defense, Leonard (Anunoby) who is a great defender and also turned into a great scorer, and Siakam (Kuminga) who is athletic but also has some good offensive skills, not with Vince Carter (Jalen Green) who is a super talented offensive player who scores on his own a lot, and isn't known for defense, working hard, and wanting to win at all costs. Green should be amazing though, but he might not be there for us anyway.
Ryker, here are 3 reasons you might like Suggs and this roster more than you realize, even over Mobley or Green. If you don't like waiting to get good, I think Suggs is currently known as easily the most win now guy in the draft, and guys like him aren't often at the top of the draft. While going with a rookie in the playoffs is always risky, he has much more potential than Green, Mobley, Kuminga, or Barnes, let alone other players. Because of his solid defense and IQ, he might be able to hang in there in his first year. Remember, even our lower picks in Siakam, Anunoby, and Powell all started in the regular season on a top Raptors team in their first year, with Powell starting in the playoffs some. Why? DEFENSE, MOTOR, and HARD WORK. But Suggs also has top pick offensive potential. Personally, at this top pick I think we should go for the best long term potential player and win now shouldn't be important, so if Green or Kuminga was actually better long term I would take that chance. But I think Suggs could also be that long term all around player as well for the reasons listed above, even though I do like that Suggs is also more NBA ready too which is just a nice plus for us.
Second, you've talked about how VanVleet isn't a pass first guy, and playing VanVleet and Lowry together isn't great. Suggs is actually a perfect complement to Lowry, Flynn or even VanVleet in my mind, while also being the potential pass first playmaker and long term solution to take over from Lowry in a league dominated by great passing and shooting point guards on many of the top teams. When or if Suggs is playing together with Lowry or Flynn for now, their defense could be great together at guard, especially paired with Anunoby and Siakam at forward. But we can now have more length and strength with Suggs playing SG potentially, and still go with potential two PG lineups that have worked for us in the past with Lowry/Vazquez, VanVleet/Wright, and VanVleet/Lowry. It doesn't matter that Suggs is more of the passer. Lowry or Flynn plays PG on defense where they are good, with Suggs having better length and strength to guard SG and SF. And Suggs plays PG on offense with Flynn or even Lowry because of his playmaking ability and Kyle's shooting ability. Then Suggs is also the long term solution, so if he turns out amazing you could then trade Kyle and have Trent, Thybulle or someone else at SG, or even play Flynn and Suggs together if Flynn gets really good too and you like more playmaking.
Third, this trade has the potential to get guys back at their regular positions and have good length and rebounding, except for Boucher out of position at center. We got 3-and-D guys at SF, shooters and potential scorers at SG, scorers at PF, passers at PG, and athletic rim protectors and rebounders who can also switch onto smaller players at C. Nurse will play around a lot as always, and also because some of these guys like Kuminga, Suggs, Trent, Thybulle, and even Boucher have more versatility than previous players like VanVleet, Gasol, Valsooinawallsauce, and even Lowry. But there is potential to have more guys at their natural positions or not playing way out of position, especially if you do get a bigger center that is more talented than Boucher, or eventually trade Siakam and have Boucher and/or later Kuminga or Anunoby at PF.
As far as Boucher starting at center, I realize it seems odd and everyone worries most about getting a center or two. I don't as much. We have so many other good young players with this roster and can find centers even though they didn't do great at it last year going with the big brutes in Baynes and Len. So many things could happen before the season and Siakam is out to start off, but Boucher starting at center is my big crazy prediction and wish, even though it's not the perfect solution. In previous years I had two crazy predictions that came true. After we traded for Kawhi, everyone assumed Valanciunas would start and Ibaka would go to the bench, but right away I thought Ibaka should start along with Green because the overall defense could be amazing. It was double addition by subtraction by getting rid of DeRozan and moving Valanciunas to the bench. Getting the two worst defenders out of the starting lineup made a big difference, along with trading CJ Miles and JV later. We had enough offense even though it wasn't the best in the league, but with Ibaka and Green in the starting lineup, and later with the Gasol trade, the defense was ridiculously amazing. Then the following year everyone assumed Powell would start at SG and take over from Green, as VanVleet was a clear backup PG. But I thought VanVleet should start because he was clearly the better player, and Nurse also made that change which people thought was really odd.
It's the same thing with Boucher. If we don't get someone obviously better, which could be tough with how great Boucher has been per minute, I think we should take his weaknesses and just go with him at center alongside Siakam once Siakam is back. Boucher is still a great 3 point shooter, floor spacer, rim protector, shot blocker, very mobile big who can switch, and great rebounder. Yes he's skinny and will give up some easy baskets, backdowns, and rebounds that look bad. But Gasol, Ibaka, and Valanciunas all had their weaknesses too. Boucher is at least good at both ends of the floor unlike Gasol on offense except his passing, and Valanciunas on defense except his rebounding. I'm not sure we should leave Boucher on the bench just to start some solid rebounder big guy who can't shoot. With such good defense and length at the other spots, it might be better to have Boucher's good shooting, mobility, and offensive skills in the starting lineup.